Interview - Mr Bipin Behari Lall

Venkat Ramanujam Ramani and Daniel Mathew II Economics with 
Dr. Harsh Kumar, Reader in Sanskrit

The term achievement or record is not strange to any Stephanian, whether it be in academics or extra curricular activities within the college or in the national or international arena outside the college. Stephanians have always excelled as far as achievements are concerned. However there is one record that hardly any Stephanian of the present generation holds: the record of having their entire family graduating from St.Stephen's. Amazing isn't it? We felt the same way and decided that it was time for us to pay a visit to Mr.Bipin Behari Lall. He is a seasoned practitioner with a distinguished record in the field of Criminal Law. The present write up is based on an interview with him conducted on 25.2.2000 at his residence in Delhi.
I was born on 18 June 1919. My name doesn't carry the surname Mathur because Lala Hardayal, the great revolutionary who was a Stephanian, was also a Mathur. So my grandfather thought our family shouldn't use the surname, as this would cause us problems in getting a government job. 
 Four generations of our family were part of St. Stephen's College (SSC). Only two or three families in India hold the distinction of having all their family members graduating from St.Stephen's. My grandfathers, Lala Chotelal (maternal) and Lala Jagat Narain (paternal) were students of St. Stephen's in 1880s. My father joined this college in 1912. My elder brother Hem Chand was also part of this institution in early 1930s. I joined the college in 1934. My son Akshay Bipin also graduated from St.Stephen's. The College during my grandfather's time was located in Katra Kushal Rai, in Chandni Chowk. It was popular with kayasthas who formed a liberal part of the Delhi Society. However the college met with some resistance from the orthodox part of Delhi Society. Both of my grandfathers joined Roorkee College of Engineering. Lala Chotelal topped the entrance examination, a rare distinction for any Indian student. This was recorded by F.F.Monk in the book History of St.Stephen's College (p.51): "Already in 1889 one student had headed the list in the Rurki engineers' examination, winning a prize of Rs.1000, a great distinction as the competition was open to both Europeons and Indians in the whole of North India." The College was by then progressing rapidly in its new home in Kashmere Gate. Lala Chotelal topped the list every year in Roorkee while Lala Jagat Narain was the last. There were two or three failures in the exams. A joke went around that Lala Jagat Narain outclassed the failures because he was a Stephanian. In the memory of Lala Chotelal, I have instituted a prize, for character combined with learning, for students of St.Stephen's. I was greatly influenced by the Head of the History department, Prof. T.G.P. Spear. I studied in St.Stephen's for a period of six years (1934-1940). I was only an above average student. Dr. Spear had extraordinary capabilities of sizing up a student. He advised me that I should become a lawyer, as I did well in College and inter-college debates.
 Although I had joined the chambers of my maternal uncle, who was the top criminal lawyer of Delhi, two other Stephanians, who were also advocates in Delhi, influenced me greatly. They are Mr. Nooruddin Ahmed and Mr. Qudiruddin. The latter was a very successful lawyer on the Civil Side. He later migrated to Pakistan and became a High Court judge. Knowing that I was an old Stephanian they used to take me along to their chambers and give me sound advice. Mr. Nooruddin Ahmed was also a part-time lecturer in the Law Faculty. Once when Mahatma Gandhi undertook a fast, daily prayers were held in all colleges for his good health. I led the prayer meetings in the Law Faculty. Upon hearing me one day Mr. Nooruddin Ahmed remarked, that the prayer I conducted, reminded him of the prayers that used to be held in the College. I have handled many of the important state cases as a special counsel. Some of these are-
 a) Gandhi Murder Commission of Enquiry,
 b) Murder of Solicitor General in Delhi, 
 c) Commission of Enquiry connected with the death of Deen Dayal Upadhyaya and L.N.Mishra (the then Railways Minister - in Samastipur, Bihar Railway Station).

Visitors: I remember the visit of two distinguished visitors to the College-
 a) The Prince of Wales- I was chosen to receive him of behalf of the college. I was very        impressed by him. He spoke well and his wide knowledge on a global basis was amazing. 
 b) Pakistan President Zia-ul-Haq , an old student of the College- He came to Delhi in 1983 in connection with the NAM conference. He visited the College as an old student. As the president of the Old Boys Association I was given the honour to receive him on behalf of the College. While sitting in the drawing room of Principal Rajpal, I sat on a chair while he occupied the main sofa. He walked upto me and made me sit besides him. He said that although he was the President of Pakistan, he was visiting the college as an old student and since I was the president of the Old Boys Association, my right place was besides him. Once a few missionaries came from the U.K., I was called and asked to show them around. These missionaries traced down the actual location of the tomb of the Rev.S.S.Allnutt, the first principal of the college. It was in the Paharganj Cemetery, near the Circular Road behind the New Delhi railway station. The body was later exhumed and reburied behind the chapel of the College.
Communal Harmony:Two other things that may be narrated here are that SSC was a great promoter of communal harmony. For that purpose there used to be monthly college dinners, which were attended by members of all castes and creeds. (This has been referred to at page 23 of the book India Remembered by T.G.P. Spear.) At these dinners, the students occupied chairs as they liked and it was a great experiment in promoting communal harmony. In those days there existed a cleavage between the two communities and this experiment was done to promote Communal Harmony. The dinners were properly arranged and students volunteered to serve.
Criterion Club: The other thing I remember was the Criterion Club. I understand that the Criterion Club does not operate with that importance as it did in my times and earlier. It was a debating society and imparted important training in parliamentary system of government. We used to have a proper Cabinet headed by a Prime Minister and we also had a Leader of Opposition. I must relate an incident, which comes to my mind. Once the Leader of the Opposition, with an advance notice, put a question about the measures the College would take to meet the situation if the Nazis attacked the College (This was when World War II was on.). I was at a loss to draft an answer. I turned to Shri.S.K Bose, Professor of Economics, who used to attend the activities of Criterion Club with some regularity. He suggested a reply, which I adopted. I said, "We are proposing to have a mote dug around the college which will be filled with water both from the Principal's Residence and the College building. So in case of a Nazi attack, the flooded mote will keep the army at bay." World War II started in September 1939. This brought about a qualitative change in SSC as a whole. The Nationalists in India were against collaborating with the British rulers in their war efforts. There was a nationalist movement working in SSC with its objective of rallying around students to participate in freedom struggle. During this period it met with a little setback, but its cultural activities continued with greater vigour. Earlier, Dr. K.B. Lall, an old student, was a prominent figure in the Nationalist Society. The Communist group in the college also became quite strong because Russia was a part of the allies.
Games: SSC was and has been the main institution earning laurels in the field of games. I took a keen interest in all the games played in the college. However, my main interest lay in playing tennis. I was frequently at the grounds, which at that time was common, i.e., in the same field all the games were played. I used to join the net practice in cricket. I was never a good cricketer, but at the nets I used to help the cricketers to retrieve the ball when it was sent to a great distance. Once when I walked to the college grounds in the morning, I found a cricket match in progress between SSC and another college. The 11th player never turned up. So I was asked to join the team and was sent in last. We were about forty runs short when I started playing. I did not know how the ball came to me and I hit more than thirty runs by hitting fours and a six. My partner also collected a few runs. Ultimately we won by two runs. From the day I left college I always kept in contact with the college and the staff members, specially Prof. S.K. Bose, who used to visit my house while going back from college after a meeting or otherwise. He also influenced me a great deal on account of his dedication to studies as well as games in the college, a rare combination. On account of my constant touch with the college I was taken into the Governing Body (G.B.) of the college and I continued to serve the college for a record period of more than 25 years (1967 onwards). The Chancellor's Trophy for one year did not come to SSC. Principal Rajpal, later, happened to remark in a college gathering that this was a temporary phase and the next year it will come to its rightful place, and it did.
Q: You were a student during the period of Principal Mukarji. Can you tell us something about him and your friends in the college? You have told us about your involvement in sports and games and also in debating. What were the main activities you were involved in?
A: I was interested in debating and whenever I took part in an inter-college debate I was greatly helped by Prof. T.G.P. Spear in drafting my script. During my time Andrews Trophy was inaugurated and the college team won it. I was awarded the first prize. Inspite of resistance from my family, I joined law in 1946 where I got going speedily. I was also interested in games, especially tennis. In those days we had a good number of tennis players. (Mr. Bipin Behari Lall played tennis for 45 years till the year 1985. The editor recalls seeing him playing tennis with young scholars of SSC at an Old Boys' Reunion.) I once got appointed as the secretary of tennis team, but that was only after the senior players had left for their University exams. SSC used to organize debates in which public figures also took part. They were mostly from Congress. Debates included both students and politicians, and that led to very interesting interactions. Principal Mukarji was very fond of these debates. His hallmark was discipline, educational soundness and character building.
Q: Do you remember any memorable incidents from your years in College in which you or some of your friends participated?
A: There was a student of my batch, Mukhimuddeen Farooqui. He dominated the earlier years of the Criterion Club. He was a Communist in his outlook. He was well liked both by Principal Mukarji and the students, for his intellectual caliber. Later he became a full time worker of the Communist Party. He left a great impact on me, except that his faith in Communism was not my way of thinking. My family was totally nationalist in outlook and was under the spell of Mahatma Gandhi.
Q: Can you tell us something about the relationships with other colleges, especially Hindu College, which would mean in terms of both competition and co-operation? 
A: In my days there was co-operation. The M.A students were attending lectures on a recognized basis in both the colleges. Lectures on Indian History were held in Hindu College, while lectures on European History were held in SSC. At that time the University complex did not exist. Although St. Stephen's College is rated as the best academic institution in the country, other colleges like Hindu have often given us tough competition. However, other colleges did not participate in this sort of exchange of lectures. I think the SSC as a unit has produced more IAS officers than all the other local colleges put together. A Stephanian, after leaving the College, is very concerned for other Stephanians. I give you an instance. If a Stephanian meets an old Stephanian, the joy is very perceptible, very much unlike the way the students of other colleges meet each other: a feeling of closeness is absent.
Q: Were you ever accused that being in SSC, which was run by the Britishers, you had a pro-British attitude?
A: I was a great fan of the Britishers. However my feelings were not so prominent and were kept to myself. I always thought my destiny was government service. That is why I never participated openly in nationalist or Communist activities in college. At heart I was always a nationalist and so were most of the Stephanians. However, during World War II, fighting the fascist Nazis became a priority.
Q: What were the main activities of the Nationalist Society?
A: It was engaged in mobilizing students of SSC towards nationalist struggle, at least in thought. It also undertook many social service activities (under the dynamic leadership of Dr. K.B.Lall). However in my times it did not hold that much of importance. Criterion Club held the centerstage.
Q: There was always a public outcry when nationalist leaders were put in jail. Was SSC ever a part of such a mass campaign or movement?
A: SSC was never a part of a mass movement as a college on the whole. However the college did produce leading revolutionaries like Lala Hardayal.
Q: Does that mean SSC was very standoffish when it came to participation in the nationalist movement and that its activities were confined to at most debates?
A: Look, in those days the main aim of students was to join the government service (ICS). There was one person, Mr. Shyam Nath (contemporary of Dr. K.B. Lall), who later became a Congress minister. Apart from that I don't think SSC has ever produced any other great Congressman.
Q: What used to be the most talked about thing in College at that time?
A: Mainly politics, social service and freedom movement.
Q: Sir, can you tell us about your years as a member of the College Governing Body? How did you see the college as a member of the Governing Body?
A: My attitude as a member of the G.B. was to support the Principal unless the opposite viewpoint had great force in it. And then it was the duty of members of the governing body to have some moderating effect, which they did successfully. Most of the differences were based on different perspectives rather than on any real problems. Sometimes the members of the G.B. who came from the staff council were critical about things going on in the college. However after a dialogue the matter was settled. The G.B. council included Bishops, staff members of the college, university representatives and other prominent citizens. This was an ideal combination leading to harmonious interaction as all of them showed a great deal of maturity while dealing with any issue.
Q: Can you recall any particular incident when you were caught between the college and the workers?
A: I remember a strike, which happened during the days of Mr. Rajpal. He was such a forceful personality that he was capable of handling it on his own. The Governing Body did deliberate on this issue, but it was the firm stand of Principal Rajpal that settled the issue.
Q: As a member of the G.B. you have seen three decades of Stephanian graduates. Do you feel that there is a change in their attitude or perspective or are they similar to those in your times?
A: I guess the students in my days were more disciplined.
Q: What makes you say that?
A: Because we would never indulge in any anti-staff activity or any anti-Principal activity. You have to take discipline in a more liberal sense.
Q: Any other changes or any striking feature that came to your notice: What about changes in aspirations of students?
A: The general impression that I gather is that students are more critical and that is a healthy sign. During my tenure in the G.B. I thought that a few lecturers showed unnecessary hostility towards the Principal.
Q: After all these years as a criminal lawyer, you must have formed an idea about the traits in human nature and our society, which lead to people indulging in criminal activities. Can you tell us something about that?
A: Late disposal of cases defeats justice. Mounting cases and lack of space for courts create problems. Witnesses come to court; they feel harassed, with no proper arrangement for them on account of sheer numbers. Adjournments are given, which are really disagreeable to persons coming as witnesses. The result is that witnesses avoid becoming one, good causes are lost, bad causes are won. There are three categories of criminals:
            a) Basically criminals- nothing can reform them; 
            b) Not basically criminal- but an account of circumstances like poverty and low status in society they are led into these activities; 
            c) Mainly confined to the villages- Group rivalries mainly, and land disputes lead to criminal acts.
Q: Can the society do something to curtail and minimize these litigations so people can settle disputes outside courts, quickly and effectively?
A: Lok Adalats provide a forum for arbitration in civil law cases. But tragedy remains that if you cut down on one type of litigation other types of litigation arise.
Q: Have there ever been any instances where you might have regretted taking up a case?
A: A lawyer's duty is to defend the accused. It is part of his ethics not to refuse defending an accused, because the institution says that every accused has to be defended. On the basis of this principle, the government has made legal defence available to all in form of legal aid.
Q: You have been on special enquiry commissions for so many important cases. Would you like to divulge a few details?
A:
 a) In the L.K.Mishra murder case, the enquiry commission headed by a Supreme Court judge, took cognizance of findings of investigations conducted by the CBI and positively identified the method of assassination. The accused were identified, arrested and prosecuted.
 b) In the Deen Dayal Upadhyay murder case, the commission came to the conclusion that no political party was behind it and he was thrown out of a running train by two common thieves. 
 c) The murder of Solicitor General of India, Mr. Sanyal was done by his domestic servant in New Delhi. His domestic help got to know that he had some money in his locker in the almirah. He went to some criminals and took their assistance in stealing it. However, the locker couldn't be broken into. Their unsuccessful attempt to remove the locker created a commotion and Mr.Sanyal woke up. The servant fearing that Mr.Sanyal had recognized him prompted the accomplice to kill Mr. Sanyal.
 d) Another case that I undertook was a Budget leakage case. It was traced to a foreman in the government printing press. He was convicted and prosecuted.
Q: We know that many countries abroad have law being taught as a graduation subject. Do you think that such a practice should be followed in India?
A: No, law should be taught at only at postgraduation level or else it will lead to sheer duplication if it were to be taught at graduation level.
Q: What do think about the present Constitution Review Commission?
A: At a certain stage the impression was that the desire was to bring about basic changes in the Constitution. I think the Constitution is near perfect, but in course of time one might feel some amendments are necessary. That has been done in the past and can be done again. The resistance to any change in the Constitution emanates from the feeling that the ruling party wants to incorporate some changes, which will give them some political advantage. I think the reviewing commission will not make a mistake like that. 
Q: Do you remember anything about the years of Independence? You have seen the partition and subsequent riots. Did you ever witness a riot? Did the College play any role in curbing the riots?
A: Shortly after the division was announced there was a lot of carnage in and around Delhi. Many riots took place. Dr. K.B. Lall, ICS, was posted to co-ordinate the activities of stopping the riots and making arrangements for refugees who wanted to migrate.He did a fine job. No, I have never witnessed a riot. Also SSC, as far as my knowledge goes, did not play any substantial role in riot control.
Q: When Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated, what was the scene like in the college and the city?
A: When Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated, there was sadness in the college and throughout the town. There was also an apprehension about the future. Initially people thought that it was the work of refugees who had migrated to Delhi. But this proved to be incorrect. As the investigation later proved he fell victim to the activities of a Hindu militant group.
Q: You have seen both British and Indian administrators. Would you like to compare them?
A: The British administrators had all the attributes of a colonial power. During their times the Indian population was small and they could control it easily. However, once it grew in size the situation became very difficult to handle. The course of action adopted was partition. The Indian administrators were men of great strength and mental toughness. They served the country admirably in the early years of independence and later.
Q: Was there co-education during your times?
A: During my time, SSC was a co-educational institution, but the number of women students was very small. They attended the classes and went to their common room, which was a part of the Principal's residence in Kashmere Gate. The women were not involved in college activities, but some of them attended the college functions. There was hardly any intermingling between men and women. Co-education was stopped after a few years but was revived later. Very few women in my time took up jobs. They came from well-placed families.
Q: What would be your message for the new millennium?
A: Social barriers, which are being encouraged by some political parties for their personal gains should be broken down. As administrators they have to do something to break these barriers. Educated people should come up to occupy the scene. Administrators should also aim at the same thing and see to it that people are not exploited. It should be their primary concern that women's welfare be maximized. At present it is not yet making any substantial headway. In a country like India problems should be foreseen and appropriate measures to resolve them should be taken.

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